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Johnejo
09-06-2011, 10:13 AM
Hello. I am a bit confused on something and hoping I can get some clarification on this. I'm currently running MIUI 1.8.19 on my DX, and I understand it is a 2nd-init ROM. I've read the articles regarding 2nd-init ROMs and how it 'hijacks' the phones OS, but I'm confused if the 2nd-init is needed because the bootloader is locked, or because of a lack of root. I'm guessing it is because of a lack of root, but I'm not sure. Can someone bring some light to this for me? Will the DX and the D2 ever have non-2nd-init ROMs to choose from? Is it possible that at some point in time they will even have their bootloaders unlocked?

Thank you in advance for the help.

popcenator
09-06-2011, 10:15 AM
2nd init is needed because the bootloader is locked. There are non-2nd init ROMs, which is any that are not CM based.

Johnejo
09-06-2011, 10:23 AM
Okay. Thank you. So, any ROM for the DX and the D2 will have to be 2nd-init. Bummer. Thanks again. :)

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Johnejo
09-06-2011, 10:25 AM
I'm assuming the non 2nd-init ROMs you are talking about are not for the DX or the D2.

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cougmeister
09-06-2011, 10:31 AM
The 2nd init roms are built off of the base android code put out by Google. There are non 2nd init roms for the Droid x, but they are built off of Motorola's version of the code, therefore you still usually have the motoblur elements.

Sounds like you need to do some more reading on roms for the x.

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Johnejo
09-06-2011, 10:43 AM
That's for sure, I need to do more reading up on it. Thanks for the feedback as that helps me learn more. Just wasn't sure if, for example, MIUI no longer needed to be a 2nd-init ROM now that 602 is rootable. I know they are working on getting it on the GB kernel but didn't know if 2nd-init was still required.

Thank you.

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Nemo aeternamn
09-06-2011, 10:56 AM
yes... they still need the 2nd init process... as that involves getting around the locked bootloader.... so even on the gb kernel... they still have to use it.... so miui is still a 2nd init rom... and with what they do... and motorola being unwilling to unlock our bootloaders... miui and cm7 will always be using that proces..


and not all roms are using the 2nd init process... here are a couple for you to look up... these are ones based off of motorola builds... ones like apex and shuji i think... those are both based off of 602... ones based off of 596 would be liberty, darkslidex... along with alot of others... just thought i'd mention these to give ya a bit more to learn...

Johnejo
09-06-2011, 11:12 AM
Thank you very much for the help and info. Much appreciated! I recently heard of Shuji and was considering giving it a try but wasn't sure if it was worth leaving MIUI for. I'll look into those more.

Thanks again.

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popcenator
09-06-2011, 11:20 AM
I'm on Shuji now and have no complaints yet. Very stable. I've tried all the 2nd init ROMs and they're all excellent but the battery life is what brought me back to the Moto gingerbread based ROMs.

on the move..

The persuader
09-06-2011, 11:29 AM
I'm on Shuji now and have no complaints yet. Very stable. I've tried all the 2nd init ROMs and they're all excellent but the battery life is what brought me back to the Moto gingerbread based ROMs.

on the move..

Why is that ...Moto GB uses less Battery then 2nd init...with 2nd init your by passing Bootloader...that's all

Its Bubba :)

macpro88
09-06-2011, 12:58 PM
The 2nd-INIT hack works on the kernel used in Froyo, which is why 2nd-INIT ROM's use this kernel, which had terrible battery life. That is why the 2nd-INIT ROM's do not have good battery life. The NON-2nd-INIT ROMs like new Apex and Shuji, are based off of the Motorola build version 4.5.602 and this contains the newer kernel which gets much better battery life.

CM7 based ROM's are based off of pure Google Source called AOSP. No Moto software at all. None. Zip. Zilch. This makes it difficult to apply one of these ROM's to a phone which has a locked bootloader because the kernels used in Moto's builds are built for their software only.

Because of the differences between the two kernels, the 2nd-INIT hack was not playing nice with the new kernel, so some work had to be done to bring it on the new kernel, and we should see the release of CM7 Source Based ROM's on the new kernel within the new couple of weeks.

The 2nd-INIT hack is only available for the select few Motorola phones and allows us to use these awesome Source Based ROM's like CM7 on our phones regardless of being able to swap out the kernel. It does not bypass the bootloader. It does not unlock the bootloader. If you want to know more about the 2nd-INIT hack, read this: Still Loading ... blog:2011-06-14:2nd-init._what_it_is_and_how_it_works (http://cvpcs.org/blog/2011-06-14/2nd-init._what_it_is_and_how_it_works)

And all source based ROM's like CM7, MIUI etc... are all Gingerbread 2.3.5 now, regardless of the kernel.

Since Moto controls what is used on our phones, we see everything, the OS, the Kernel, the system version, as Gingerbread, when really only the OS is actually Gingerbread. The system version is just the extra crapware slapped on top of the OS and the kernel just tells the the hardware how to act with the software (os and system version).

Hope this helps.

The persuader
09-06-2011, 02:04 PM
The 2nd-INIT hack works on the kernel used in Froyo, which is why 2nd-INIT ROM's use this kernel, which had terrible battery life. That is why the 2nd-INIT ROM's do not have good battery life. The NON-2nd-INIT ROMs like new Apex and Shuji, are based off of the Motorola build version 4.5.602 and this contains the newer kernel which gets much better battery life.

CM7 based ROM's are based off of pure Google Source called AOSP. No Moto software at all. None. Zip. Zilch. This makes it difficult to apply one of these ROM's to a phone which has a locked bootloader because the kernels used in Moto's builds are built for their software only.

Because of the differences between the two kernels, the 2nd-INIT hack was not playing nice with the new kernel, so some work had to be done to bring it on the new kernel, and we should see the release of CM7 Source Based ROM's on the new kernel within the new couple of weeks.

The 2nd-INIT hack is only available for the select few Motorola phones and allows us to use these awesome Source Based ROM's like CM7 on our phones regardless of being able to swap out the kernel. It does not bypass the bootloader. It does not unlock the bootloader. If you want to know more about the 2nd-INIT hack, read this: Still Loading ... blog:2011-06-14:2nd-init._what_it_is_and_how_it_works (http://cvpcs.org/blog/2011-06-14/2nd-init._what_it_is_and_how_it_works)

And all source based ROM's like CM7, MIUI etc... are all Gingerbread 2.3.5 now, regardless of the kernel.

Since Moto controls what is used on our phones, we see everything, the OS, the Kernel, the system version, as Gingerbread, when really only the OS is actually Gingerbread. The system version is just the extra crapware slapped on top of the OS and the kernel just tells the the hardware how to act with the software (os and system version).

Hope this helps.

Most definitely did...

Techie I'm not...but I thought 2nd init was just to by pass Bootloader not drawing Battery life from Froyo base kernel....

Another question...
If All based ROMs are like Miui...and Gingerbread 2.3.5 regardless of kernel.... Explain why
...when I Flashed from Miui to Apex AIO which is GB as mentioned & Miui is a 2.3.5 ROM based...why did I have to SBF...followed the instructions posted in Red...
I'm sure I missed something or more likely misunderstood ...lol

Thank you for your Knowledge...its Awesome

Its Bubba :)

macpro88
09-06-2011, 02:15 PM
Most definitely did...

Techie I'm not...but I thought 2nd init was just to by pass Bootloader not drawing Battery life from Froyo base kernel....

Another question...
If All based ROMs are like Miui...and Gingerbread 2.3.5 regardless of kernel.... Explain why when I Flashed from Miui to Apex AIO which is GB as mentioned & Miui is a 2.3.5 ROM based...why did I have to SBF...followed the instructions posted in Red...
I'm sure I missed something or more likely misunderstood ...lol

Thank you for your Knowledge...its Awesome

Its Bubba :)

You need a kernel to run any system for one. So with the kernel from Froyo installed, the 2nd-INIT hack injects its code into memory while the Moto OS files are actually being loaded, after bootloader and kernel have been loaded, and then that hack code goes to work killing all the Moto processes and files, and then loads whatever files it wants back into the memory, in our case that being CM7.

Apex is Moto Build based ROM, not 2nd-INIT, meaning it contains the same kernel as the newest .602 update. To install the AIO you need to be on stock .340 and that kernel contained within. Why? Cause I guess that's just how it worked out to work the best. The AIO probably contains code that looks for .340 system files before it installs. Not too sure.

Quick view of how 2nd-INIT works:

Kernel is loaded --> once loaded Moto based build TRYS to start to run --> 2nd-INIT process kills all Moto processes --> desired processes are loaded in our case CM7

This all happens after the kernel is loaded. With Moto builds, its comes in a package deal, the kernel, OS version, and system version are binned together because of the locked bootloader situation. But we now know 2nd-INIT allows otherwise ;)

The persuader
09-06-2011, 05:51 PM
You need a kernel to run any system for one. So with the kernel from Froyo installed, the 2nd-INIT hack injects its code into memory while the Moto OS files are actually being loaded, after bootloader and kernel have been loaded, and then that hack code goes to work killing all the Moto processes and files, and then loads whatever files it wants back into the memory, in our case that being CM7.

Apex is Moto Build based ROM, not 2nd-INIT, meaning it contains the same kernel as the newest .602 update. To install the AIO you need to be on stock .340 and that kernel contained within. Why? Cause I guess that's just how it worked out to work the best. The AIO probably contains code that looks for .340 system files before it installs. Not too sure.

Quick view of how 2nd-INIT works:

Kernel is loaded --> once loaded Moto based build TRYS to start to run --> 2nd-INIT process kills all Moto processes --> desired processes are loaded in our case CM7

This all happens after the kernel is loaded. With Moto builds, its comes in a package deal, the kernel, OS version, and system version are binned together because of the locked bootloader situation. But we now know 2nd-INIT allows otherwise ;)

I printed this B-Cuz I think this information is Awesome...Moving forward...for me it helps understand the process for Lining up my Ducts...I will never be a your Level...LOL...

But I'll Talk Important...:omg:Sure Bubba...All BS aside... You know your Stuff Man
You can look me up under "Bubba KNows Jack" about computers...:work2:

Its Bubba