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View Full Version : Government math-Cash for clunkers program saves gas, costs just 3 billion



HarleyDude
05-07-2011, 06:28 PM
A clunker that travels 12,000 miles a year at 15 mpg uses 800 gallons of gas a year.
A vehicle that travels 12,000 miles a year at 25 mpg uses 480 gallons of gas a year.
So, the average Cash for Clunkers transaction will reduce gasoline consumption by 320 gallons per year.
The government claims 700,000 clunkers have been replaced so that's 224 million gallons saved per year.
That equates to a bit over 5 million barrels of oil.

5 million barrels is about 5 hours worth of US consumption.
More importantly, 5 million barrels of oil at $70 per barrel costs about $350 million dollars.

So, the government paid $3 billion of our tax dollars to save $350 million.
We spent $8.57 for every $1.00 we saved.

I'm pretty sure they will do a better job with our health care, though.

skennelly
05-07-2011, 06:51 PM
That's our government. This is why they work for government and not private companies. You'd be fired on the spot for even proposing something so ridiculous.

Talon66721
05-07-2011, 06:57 PM
Pretty amazing when you put some actual numbers down for us! As stated, that's our government working hard to look out for us. Sure am glad we have someone to tell us that we're being looked out for and not to do any of our own thinking. If we did, we just might realize how we ARE being taken care of.

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Dougd
05-12-2011, 10:06 PM
First of all, the average driver in the US travels 15,000 miles/year, not 12,000. This means The average cash for clunkers transaction will save 400 gallons of gasoline per year, not 320. With the 700,000 clunkers, 280,000,000 gallons are being saved each year. Obviously refined gasoline is going to cost more than a barrel of oil, so im not sure why you converted it to barrels at this point. Anyway, at $4 per gallon, 280,000,000 gallons of gasoline costs 1,120,000,000 dollars compared to Harleydude's 350,000,000 dollar figure. He also conveniently leaves out that this is money saved each and every year. If these people keep their cars for only 5 years(most will keep them longer) they will save 5.6 billion dollars at a cost to the government of only 3 billion. Let's not forget this program stimulated the automobile industry at a time when they were struggling to survive, and it is helping to reduce pollution and CO2 emissions. The only thing HarleyDude has proven is that it is very easy to manipulate numbers to trick people into believing what he wants them to believe.

skennelly
05-12-2011, 10:29 PM
what still doesn't make sense are my tax dollars paying for my neighbors new vehicle. While they're at it, how about I buy him a new furnace, air conditioner, and new windows.

RudyN
05-12-2011, 10:32 PM
The cash for clunkers program is what is called a "Feel Good" program. In other words it does not really do anything except make people "feel Good" that they are doing something. Just don't look at the costs because it will make you mad.

Leach19m
05-12-2011, 10:41 PM
First of all, the average driver in the US travels 15,000 miles/year, not 12,000. This means The average cash for clunkers transaction will save 400 gallons of gasoline per year, not 320. With the 700,000 clunkers, 280,000,000 gallons are being saved each year. Obviously refined gasoline is going to cost more than a barrel of oil, so im not sure why you converted it to barrels at this point. Anyway, at $4 per gallon, 280,000,000 gallons of gasoline costs 1,120,000,000 dollars compared to Harleydude's 350,000,000 dollar figure. He also conveniently leaves out that this is money saved each and every year. If these people keep their cars for only 5 years(most will keep them longer) they will save 5.6 billion dollars at a cost to the government of only 3 billion. Let's not forget this program stimulated the automobile industry at a time when they were struggling to survive, and it is helping to reduce pollution and CO2 emissions. The only thing HarleyDude has proven is that it is very easy to manipulate numbers to trick people into believing what he wants them to believe.

Figures are easily manipulated, for sure. Also, as stated here, it helps reduce CO2 emissions, which I think hard to argue against being a good thing. The next step would be to invest in the infrastructure for electric or hydrogen cars. Gasoline is clearly one of two things 1) almost gone or 2) too easy to make people think 1 is the case (which I think is more likely the case) and is most definitely bad for the environment

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skennelly
05-13-2011, 04:59 AM
Figures are easily manipulated, for sure. Also, as stated here, it helps reduce CO2 emissions, which I think hard to argue against being a good thing. The next step would be to invest in the infrastructure for electric or hydrogen cars. Gasoline is clearly one of two things 1) almost gone or 2) too easy to make people think 1 is the case (which I think is more likely the case) and is most definitely bad for the environment

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The US does not consume all of the gasoline it produces and exports much of it to mexico (which by the way, has fuel for around 1/2 the cost of the u.s.). This makes #1 false and if #2 is true then people really need to do their own research rather than follow the flock.

Backnblack
05-13-2011, 05:41 AM
First of all, the average driver in the US travels 15,000 miles/year, not 12,000.

That depends on what you consider average....I've been doing about 55,000 a year since 85.
12k or 15k to me would mean you are out of work....And No, I don't drive for a living.

spodoc
05-13-2011, 06:15 AM
what still doesn't make sense are my tax dollars paying for my neighbors new vehicle. While they're at it, how about I buy him a new furnace, air conditioner, and new windows.

You did via the inevestment and recovery act.

Leach19m
05-13-2011, 04:31 PM
The US does not consume all of the gasoline it produces and exports much of it to mexico (which by the way, has fuel for around 1/2 the cost of the u.s.). This makes #1 false and if #2 is true then people really need to do their own research rather than follow the flock.

Doing their own research won't change the fact that gas companies can charge whatever they want. Which is why investing in alternate energy infrastructure should be a main priority of the govt right now.

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MICHO
05-13-2011, 04:36 PM
17469

skennelly
05-13-2011, 05:41 PM
Doing their own research won't change the fact that gas companies can charge whatever they want. Which is why investing in alternate energy infrastructure should be a main priority of the govt right now.

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Let the gov't figure out how to run the post office profitably, then they can start worrying about alternate forms of energy.

Leach19m
05-13-2011, 05:49 PM
Let the gov't figure out how to run the post office profitably, then they can start worrying about alternate forms of energy.

Lol good luck with that. People ***** about it costing $.44 to send a letter across the county. However, if they didn't have to pay $4.50/gal on their trucks, out might help that profitability

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Cigar_Junkie
05-13-2011, 05:54 PM
Post office, why go there when they are doing so well in the banking and mortgage business. And lets not forget what a success, and profit center, social security and medicare have become. Please...

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skennelly
05-13-2011, 06:44 PM
Lol good luck with that. People ***** about it costing $.44 to send a letter across the county. However, if they didn't have to pay $4.50/gal on their trucks, out might help that profitability

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The usps lost around 4 billion last year. A couple bucks a gallon difference wouldn't even be a drop in the bucket.

great999
05-13-2011, 07:13 PM
it stimulated the japan car market

Dougd
05-14-2011, 05:13 PM
The US does not consume all of the gasoline it produces and exports much of it to mexico (which by the way, has fuel for around 1/2 the cost of the u.s.). This makes #1 false and if #2 is true then people really need to do their own research rather than follow the flock.

Sounds like you need to do your own research. The US produces only 9 million barrels of oil per day and consumes over 20 million barrels of oil per day. we reached peak oil production in 1970. Since then, we have had to import more and more oil to meet demand. Oil is going to run out. I know it's a scary thought, but deal with it. Nothing lasts for ever, especially a finite resource. It's ridiculous to pretend like there is an endless supply. We are starting to see signs of this. $4 a gallon gas! Drilling over a mile under the ocean! Extracting oil from tar sands. All of the easily reachable oil is being exhausted and the price you pay for a gallon of gas is going nowhere but up. I don't claim to know when it will happen or how quickly, but I can tell you that with China and India quickly becoming oil dependent societies, it will happen quicker than anyone expects. The government needs to do more to break our countries addiction to oil and support more stable, renewable sources of energy.

Leach19m
05-14-2011, 05:28 PM
Sounds like you need to do your own research. The US produces only 9 million barrels of oil per day and consumes over 20 million barrels of oil per day. we reached peak oil production in 1970. Since then, we have had to import more and more oil to meet demand. Oil is going to run out. I know it's a scary thought, but deal with it. Nothing lasts for ever, especially a finite resource. It's ridiculous to pretend like there is an endless supply. We are starting to see signs of this. $4 a gallon gas! Drilling over a mile under the ocean! Extracting oil from tar sands. All of the easily reachable oil is being exhausted and the price you pay for a gallon of gas is going nowhere but up. I don't claim to know when it will happen or how quickly, but I can tell you that with China and India quickly becoming oil dependent societies, it will happen quicker than anyone expects. The government needs to do more to break our countries addiction to oil and support more stable, renewable sources of energy.

Word, especially on the last sentence. As critical as people think healthcare reform is and paying of the debt (don't get me wrong, they're important too) all that won't do us any good when we are having to pay $10/ gallon and/or are totally out of oil... or, we are all dead from climate change. It's not just our govt that needs to figure it out, it's a global issue.

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skennelly
05-16-2011, 05:29 AM
Sounds like you need to do your own research. The US produces only 9 million barrels of oil per day and consumes over 20 million barrels of oil per day. we reached peak oil production in 1970. Since then, we have had to import more and more oil to meet demand. Oil is going to run out. I know it's a scary thought, but deal with it. Nothing lasts for ever, especially a finite resource. It's ridiculous to pretend like there is an endless supply. We are starting to see signs of this. $4 a gallon gas! Drilling over a mile under the ocean! Extracting oil from tar sands. All of the easily reachable oil is being exhausted and the price you pay for a gallon of gas is going nowhere but up. I don't claim to know when it will happen or how quickly, but I can tell you that with China and India quickly becoming oil dependent societies, it will happen quicker than anyone expects. The government needs to do more to break our countries addiction to oil and support more stable, renewable sources of energy.

There is a difference between crude barrels and gasoline production, so maybe you want to look into that some more.

Asharad
05-16-2011, 05:42 AM
I've been doing about 55,000 a year since 85. 12k or 15k to me would mean you are out of work...


You're commute is way too long, and you are wasting your life (and money) away on it :omg:

I drive 15k per year, and consider my commute to be too long.

Backnblack
05-16-2011, 09:57 AM
You're commute is way too long, and you are wasting your life (and money) away on it :omg:

I drive 15k per year, and consider my commute to be too long.

As soon as I can make the money I do closer to home I will....

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spodoc
05-16-2011, 09:55 PM
You're commute is way too long, and you are wasting your life (and money) away on it :omg:

2I drive 15k per year, and consider my commute to be too long.

Children that work part time at the grocery store can just quit and get a job closer to their college dorm. Adults with good jobs that are married to other professionals and who also own houses and may have kids in school sometimes find themselves driving far because that's just how things worked out. Its rude to say w are wasting our lives away.

If that sounds negative that's because I drive over an hour andthink about my family while I drive. This economy isn't exactly condusive to selling your house to follow a job or to getting a new job to shortened a commute.

skennelly
05-17-2011, 04:33 AM
Children that work part time at the grocery store can just quit and get a job closer to their college dorm. Adults with good jobs that are married to other professionals and who also own houses and may have kids in school sometimes find themselves driving far because that's just how things worked out. Its rude to say w are wasting our lives away.

If that sounds negative that's because I drive over an hour andthink about my family while I drive. This economy isn't exactly condusive to selling your house to follow a job or to getting a new job to shortened a commute.

Amen, brother. I drive 40-45k/yr. However, I'm in sales and I either put on the miles and make money, or stay home and don't. My wife stays home to raise our daughters, so there really is no choice. (not to mention I LOVE my job and have so much flexibilty in my schedule). I couldn't imagine having someone tell me when to show up and when leave everyday.

Asharad
05-17-2011, 04:28 PM
Its rude to say w are wasting our lives away
Not rude. It's true. /shrug

Maybe I just got lucky... I once had a 60 mile commute, but I moved my family to be closer to the job. Now it's 30. Like I said, it's still too long.

skennelly
05-17-2011, 08:06 PM
Not rude. It's true. /shrug

Maybe I just got lucky... I once had a 60 mile commute, but I moved my family to be closer to the job. Now it's 30. Like I said, it's still too long.

To assume everyones situation is as easy as yours is foolish.

Asharad
05-17-2011, 08:22 PM
True....