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FromBBtoDroid
12-02-2010, 04:53 PM
I am not a developer. I fully support their work and other than being able to take full advantage of the things they are capable of, I have no real vested interest in access to the bootloader for the DroidX. What I do have an interest in is the ability, as a consumer, to control the device that I have purchased in a way that I feel is best for how I want to use and take advantage of it. When I buy a car, I do not need much besides a mechanic’s tool set (and a working knowledge of vehicles) to make modifications – some simple (change a headlight/fixture), some complicated (replace an engine), but I am limited only by my knowledge of the vehicle. Certainly if there is a vehicle that I am uncomfortable modifying, I can choose to not purchase it. Again, though, I am mindful of the choice because of my knowledge of the vehicles, not the car company placing impenetrable barriers to my modifications.

But let’s consider the developers. One thing I study and research is creativity. The IT world is one that predominantly sustains itself – really makes or breaks itself – on the creativity and innovation of the people within it. Is there a fear among companies that outside developers will improve dramatically upon a product they believe to be as good as it can be? Perhaps. But this outside creativity uninhibited by the boundaries established within companies funnels eventually into the companies – either via these developers being hired by them or other developers that do work for them seeing the enhancements being made and implementing them (hopefully with credit) to some degree.

I like having my device rooted and being able to download custom ROMs. I like knowing that I can overclock, undervolt, change boot animations, fonts, and other mods. I like the work that has already been done – albeit handicapped. But, and I’d be lying if I suggested Motorola was the only one that blocks this, let’s have access for developers to the bootloader – especially on a system that was designed to be open-source. There is no hope for other devices or operating systems that do not tout themselves as open-source (BlackBerries, for example). But there was never any anticipation of that in the first place. When a company begins developing a product on an operating system that is intended to be open-source there is an expectation from the development community (and non-developers who understand it) that it will continue to be so.

The companies have made their money from the purchasing of the product. Now let us enjoy it as we see fit. I realize not everyone out there wants to modify. I get that some people are happy with it out of the box. I know some people have no idea how to even update their system. But for those of us that do and want to? Let us. Let us as far as the developers are willing to take us.

wicked
12-02-2010, 05:12 PM
good post and I agree with you 100%

1KDS
12-02-2010, 05:45 PM
I agree, but you have to consider Moto's point of view. If they gave us free reign there would be many more bricked warranty returns.

FromBBtoDroid
12-02-2010, 07:10 PM
I agree, but you have to consider Moto's point of view. If they gave us free reign there would be many more bricked warranty returns.

I understand your point and Moto's POV. I realize there are people out there who like to modify without knowing what they are doing and run into issues as well as people that develop, test things out and things go wrong. I think, like with anything in which you modify outside the scope of the 'intended' usage, it voids the warranty (I'll save the debate on 'intended usage' for someone else). I'll return to my car analogy -- if you replace the engine in your car and blow it up and try to take it back to the dealer, they're not going to honor the warranty. This may be tough love but it's the risk in modifying. I'll chip in towards new devices for devs so that when their products are stable users won't have to face these problems.

devilsephiroth
12-02-2010, 07:22 PM
Developers should consider safe and stable rooting options, like instead of just making fart apps to past the time, how about something that fundamentally helps the rooted user. Not that there already is apps out there, I mean it should be more from respected companies. All around. Rooting was the first thing in my mine when I bought the x. After I bricked one of my g1's.

Sent from my DROIDX using Droid X Forum App

LUMiNOX
12-02-2010, 08:08 PM
I agree with everything in your post. (Excellent topic by the way).

To play devils advocate, (and speaking strictly in opinion), I would contribute that Moto wants to preserve the software to hardware performance enhancements for the next gen phone of said model.
For example, after having rooted my D1 and installed a chevyno1 kernel, I was able to over-clock and under-volt to 1.1ghz effectively making my phone as fast (or faster) and just powerful as the D2 minus the extra RAM. So why buy a D2? Moto logic - If they can't root and enhance, they must purchase new.

Maybe Moto doesn't want us poking around and enhancing our phones, because it may cripple the sales of future devices. Why buy new and stock for a few Benjamin's when I can just stick with my over-clocked and perfectly functional previous gen device that may out perform a new one due to enhancements done as a result of root access.

Long story short, Moto wants money just like everyone else. The hardware and technology for most smartphones has been in existence for a while now, so warranties can't possibly be the reason, as a replacement phone doesn't cost near as much money as R&D. So it must lie in the functionality of the phone. Did you know that the D1 and D2 have the hardware for an fm radio just like the DX? Yet the software to operate the FM Radio only comes with the DX. Point in case, If you want an FM Radio and you have a D1...time to upgrade. If you want to tether, time to upgrade etc...

If you have doubts, look into the amount of time, money, and effort the Apple R&D team spends reversing and preventing jail-breaking. All because it allows users to purchase apps from other sources instead of the app store, theoretically taking money straight out of their pockets and putting it into the community. =)

Another theory could be that VZ asked for a locked bootloader and possibly other restrictions due to money coming out of their pocket. ie wireless tether...

Again great topic, and I'm looking forward to reading more posts in this thread. =)

Reaver74
12-03-2010, 08:12 AM
Good post. I agree with open source and free control, but I also have to play devils advocate here.

Phones built by companies like Motorola are designed for a balance between performance and ease-of-use. They are aimed at the general public, which (by and large) has limited knowledge of the system running beneath. Whats more...the vast and growing majority don't care. As long as the phone works as the consumer expects it to when they expect it to, they are happy. Moto wants to protect their product and image in a world where reviews are instantaneously available from average users to technical review publications alike.

Generally speaking, any time you modify something, you decrease it's reliability. There is a sacrifice of performance versus dependability. Using the car analogy, increasing compression and installing performance cams will increase horsepower at the cost of increased probability of head gasket or rod failure. Every time you modify your phone, you are increasing the chance that something will not work properly. People "in the know" understand the risks involved and choose to do modifications at their own risk. Things get interesting when your average Joe reads about rooting/modding and starts poking around. When things go wrong, the phone is a P.O.S. and Motorola sucks. Enough people get that vibe (right or wrong), and sales decrease. Motorola said as much when the locked bootloader news leaked. Paraphrasing, they said if you want to mod your phone, go ahead, but you'll have to buy something other than a Moto droid. I don't think they are against modification as much as they are trying to maintain their reputation for a quality product.

Don't get me wrong...even on a stock phone a poorly written app can cause major headaches, but that's the curse of open-source. There are a lot of sloppy developers out there that cause headaches for all phone makers. If I was selling a product, I would do what I could to keep it as close to my design intent as possible for the same reason.

joeyjackpot
12-03-2010, 11:27 AM
OP - Did you write that post in Droid Sans?

FromBBtoDroid
12-03-2010, 06:32 PM
I understand trying to maintain a quality product. I would, however, also argue that the people who do not know what they are doing and modify anyway make up the minority of the general consumers who know nothing about it. Consider, for example, that most of the places to get the information to do these mods are forums like this. While not everyone who views these pages are members, based just off of the member numbers, it is will below the overall sales of the phones. While word of mouth can play a role, I think the savviest of users and even the hobby-minded modders realize when someone is complaining because they messed something up while having no clue what they were doing (i.e. not reading the directions that developers specifically give us). But, that being said, yes, Moto does have to keep its reputation in mind. There are certainly ways they can do this. To make an extreme example, they could not get involved with an intended open-source operating system to begin with (though I love my Droid X so I'm glad that wasn't the path). But there are certain expectations, as I mentioned, from the developing community when a company DOES get involved with something that's supposed to be open-source.

FromBBtoDroid
12-03-2010, 06:32 PM
OP - Did you write that post in Droid Sans?

Nah. I wrote in Word first. Calibri.

FromBBtoDroid
12-03-2010, 06:35 PM
Also, I'm enjoying this discussion. I like that people are actually thinking about this and no one's started BSing or just complaining.

1KDS
12-03-2010, 06:37 PM
+1, great topic

ViciousCircle
12-03-2010, 11:38 PM
I understand your point and Moto's POV. I realize there are people out there who like to modify without knowing what they are doing and run into issues as well as people that develop, test things out and things go wrong. I think, like with anything in which you modify outside the scope of the 'intended' usage, it voids the warranty (I'll save the debate on 'intended usage' for someone else). I'll return to my car analogy -- if you replace the engine in your car and blow it up and try to take it back to the dealer, they're not going to honor the warranty. This may be tough love but it's the risk in modifying. I'll chip in towards new devices for devs so that when their products are stable users won't have to face these problems.

I also love tinkering with my phone, and do some tweaks myself, but I mostly rely on those developers and ROM makes and learn from them. And, I agree that if you do want to root, tweak, overclock and such, you should basically have a voided warranty. However, the difference with these phones and your car analogy is that if something goes wrong with the phone, using an sbf or other method, you can basically return the phone to a state where moto/vzw can't quickly tell that you modded it. Or, if you break it so that it is basically a brick, same think. With your car, you can pretty easily tell when the engine (or whatever) has been modded. Much harder with a broken device that doesn't easily show that it has been 'tweaked'. So, it'd be nice if there was an easier way for us to take responsibility and be given the 'keys' to do what we want. Say that they give you an app or something that unlocks the phone, but while doing so, it also gives up your phones ID/serial/ein. That way, you are free to do what you want, but can't come back to moto/vzw when you blow it up. Of course, it'd be nice if the extended Azurian coverage still applied :p Heck, maybe even make it so that you could take it into VZW and have them unlock the phone for you while recording the info so you can't bring it back to them.

There should be a middle ground between the tweaking community and manufacturers that works well for both.

Droid-Xer
12-04-2010, 12:33 AM
I fully agree, but like other's have mentioned, Motorola would lose their ass on warranty returns. Sure they could check the device, but they would have to hire more knowledgable personnel to check all phones for root that were being returned. More employees = more money. I don't understand how HTC phones are more hacker friendly than Moto. Evo's and Dinc's are easily cracked compared to the hoops that moto devs have to jump through just to create a ROM. Seems like Moto is more about the money than the platform. You would think Moto would want to crush Apple with a far more superior and wide open device because Apple kicked Moto processors to the curb in favor of Intel chips 6 years ago.

kiunse
12-04-2010, 01:39 PM
Way too long . Not finish reading,but support hackers

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

Greg
12-05-2010, 02:55 PM
I agree that it's locked mostly due to CS & warranty issues. It's easier to manage CS if you know exactly what the phone has.



To play devils advocate, (and speaking strictly in opinion), I would contribute that Moto wants to preserve the software to hardware performance enhancements for the next gen phone of said model.
For example, after having rooted my D1 and installed a chevyno1 kernel, I was able to over-clock and under-volt to 1.1ghz effectively making my phone as fast (or faster) and just powerful as the D2 minus the extra RAM. So why buy a D2? Moto logic - If they can't root and enhance, they must purchase new.

Maybe Moto doesn't want us poking around and enhancing our phones, because it may cripple the sales of future devices. Why buy new and stock for a few Benjamin's when I can just stick with my over-clocked and perfectly functional previous gen device that may out perform a new one due to enhancements done as a result of root access.

I'll admit I don't know anything about the D1 & D2, but I don't agree with this. Is your rooted D1 as fast as a rooted D2 could be? No. As you pointed out, the D2 has more RAM and the stock speed is faster which suggests (to me anyway) that you can OC it faster.

Newer will almost always be faster, especially if we continue to have the ability to tweak it .

LUMiNOX
12-09-2010, 10:59 PM
I agree that it's locked mostly due to CS & warranty issues. It's easier to manage CS if you know exactly what the phone has.


I'll admit I don't know anything about the D1 & D2, but I don't agree with this. Is your rooted D1 as fast as a rooted D2 could be? No. As you pointed out, the D2 has more RAM and the stock speed is faster which suggests (to me anyway) that you can OC it faster.

Newer will almost always be faster, especially if we continue to have the ability to tweak it .

The point of comparison was to show that an older rooted phone COULD (in some cases) outperform a newer model. Therefore negating the need to purchase newer version of said phone. I'm not speaking of comparing the two in a rooted state, only that I didn't feel a need to upgrade to a newer version of the Droid phone for a few hundo, when it barely outperforms my old one... Instead I got the X for more screen real estate.

In direct response to your statement, ironic as it may be, the D2 can't be as effectively or comparitively overclocked because the chipset is ALMOST identical, and the process of overclocking the D2 (for the most part) has been unsuccessful. The main (not the only) difference between the two, 512mb RAM (D2) vs 256mb (D1). Oh, and the $250 difference. :-)

LUMiNOX
12-09-2010, 11:03 PM
I agree that it's locked mostly due to CS & warranty issues. It's easier to manage CS if you know exactly what the phone has.


I'll admit I don't know anything about the D1 & D2, but I don't agree with this. Is your rooted D1 as fast as a rooted D2 could be? No. As you pointed out, the D2 has more RAM and the stock speed is faster which suggests (to me anyway) that you can OC it faster.

Newer will almost always be faster, especially if we continue to have the ability to tweak it .

Not to sound rude, but I think you kind of missed the point. I'm not comparing the models. I'm just pointing out that SOME of Moto's enhancements on the newer gen phones can be had on older models, which is why they fight the root.

They prevent root = you spend money on newer model because it does stuff the older model can't. They win.

What I don't understand is why fight it and yet continue to use open source? Doesn't make sense...

Top_Speed
12-09-2010, 11:22 PM
Im sure the DroidXX will have us rooters all blown away with stuff our DXs can't do like Outputting RF. This will open tons of new doors like taking over for any remote control in your house, opening your garage door (without any module addons). Starting your car or just unlocking the doors etc.... we all will want the DXX so logo has no fear on that. What we rooters are actually doing is setting the bar very high. So impress us Moto. Were a very spoiled bunch! ;)

Sent from my DROIDX